Curse

hazmat · Jan 29, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

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Speaded degen is excellent, but if you want that, play a necro..

Completely agree with this..

Domination far outweighs Illusion in general.. to me at least. I do find illusion excellent in random arena - especially considering the amount of warriors that play there. Shutting down casters with domination is so much more fun.

BTW, is migraine really worth taking up your only elite slot when arcane conundrum does pretty much the same thing?

Edit: Blah .. getting carried away

DieInBasra · Jan 30, 2006, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Migraine has faster recharger, lasts longer, and adds a bit of degen. Miagraine lasts for 17 recharges in 15, conundrum lasts for 13 recharges in 20, so you can keep migraine up constanly. With mantra of persistance you can keep it on two people.

Avarre · Jan 30, 2006, 01:27 AM // 01:27

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Originally Posted by DieInBasra

Have you ever been out of the random arena?

We're currently discussing PvE. And yes, I have, particularly with mesmer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

In the same situation we could have two casters casting slow and the warriors without adren with Illusion spells as well, have those hexes last twice as long so you don't have to worry about them until the end, AND have some energy managment.
The dom/ill situation you posted would cost 50 energy and you'd have little way of getting it back. The guy useing conjure has 5 other spells he can use for energy gain that can help the party as well.
All in all I think that it matters where you are and what group you have. But, when you have the choice an illusion mesmer has skills that work well with a team that knows each other, and knows what to do. In a PUG, domination is probably better.

I'll say it again... domination/illusion combo is best... domination conditional damage + SV + other hexes.

Little way of getting it back? Have YOU ever left PvP? Firstly, the whole point of tossing out hexes is from after that, you don't need to spam spells. They stay on the target. Secondly, spells such as guilt can net you a quick energy boost, as well as interrupting an enemy spell. Occasionally I play empathy spammer (mantra of recovery, empathy, some other spells), and with guilt and eTap I rarely run too heavily out of energy.

What I posted wasn't a PvP design, it was for PvE. Running something like that in PvP would get you slaughtered. I suggested 4 skills, leaving 3 for energy recovery. If you still profess to state conjure phantasm is the enemy-harming equivelent to Backfire and Empathy, then your point works.

Me/N with 1 rotting flesh in areas such as new UW = full spammage of phantasm. At less energy, and less targetting concern, for around the same time. That leaves SEVEN (not counting res) more skills to use. Like I said, play necro or Me/N if you want degen, illusion is best for skills like Visage, Migrane etc..

DieInBasra · Jan 30, 2006, 02:04 AM // 02:04

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Little way of getting it back? Have YOU ever left PvP? Firstly, the whole point of tossing out hexes is from after that, you don't need to spam spells. They stay on the target.

Yeah, I'm more pvp focused, but still, in pve it's better to have a way to get your energy back instead of asking your group to wait around. And you say that you can afford the points for energy gain, but then your points are spread around 4 attrubutes.

I was playing devils advocate on the conjure thing, yeah, that's not so great.

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We're currently discussing PvE. And yes, I have, particularly with mesmer.

Then you'd know that being a migraine mesmer involves a conjure and a drain enchant, enough to throw both veil and CoP off. What made me kind of confused is that you said that migraine can easily be CoP'd or veiled off, but that

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Firstly, the whole point of tossing out hexes is from after that, you don't need to spam spells. They stay on the target.

You also say you aren't spamming, but you just threw 4 spells out there one after the other, then you say that the person who used conjure five time is. All spin, I suppose.

Avarre · Jan 30, 2006, 02:11 AM // 02:11

And yes, I'm more PvE oriented. Usually my migrane is torn apart by every monk on the enemy side as soon as it and its feeble coverhex is cast.

There are 2 energy recovery skills for domination, guilt and shame. Both are quite useful, especially in areas like new UW where interrupting an enemy interrupt with guilt is always handy. But usually, without any energy maintainance, I don't have problems tossing out 4 hexes in rapid sucession. I've also never needed to slow down the team for being low energy, because after hexing I can basically sit and regen- my damage is 'dealt' as you could say, for the next 20 or so seconds. Guilt put on a scythe, or shame on a shadow monk gives enough of a boost to toss several more hexes, and by then the enemy side is crippled and dying already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

Then you'd know that being a migraine mesmer involves a conjure and a drain enchant, enough to throw both veil and CoP off.

Umm, if you enemy was, say, a boonprot, draining their veil would remove phantasm and their CoP would still remove boon to get the migrane, no?

DieInBasra · Jan 30, 2006, 02:24 AM // 02:24

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Usually my migrane is torn apart by every monk on the enemy side as soon as it and its feeble coverhex is cast

Then you need to bring a Necro, which goes back to my statement of Illusion being more potent in a team that knows each other, and who's skills interlink as opposed to a PUG.

We're talking random or teams then. Well, you'd target someone esle and leave him there to rot with -2 energy regen. When you see the veil is off( you'll be able to notice the cast times), follow up with the migraine conjure. You could also cast conjure and acrane conundrum on a different target, drain the target monk to get that energy back and strip him of veil, then proceed with the conjure/migraine. Conjures recharge should be able to beat out the CoP if you can get it on right after the migraine.

Avarre · Jan 30, 2006, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Eh, or I could play dom/insp energy drainer and completely ignore the enchantments on them, because they don't really affect that build

Both work, but in PvE illusionary degen is weak. In PvP, illusion doesn't kill by degen, its from cast slowing and things like Visage, both of which is use on Dom/Illu builds for PvE.

Jasrak · Jan 30, 2006, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Inspiration ftw? :P

Hella Good · Jan 30, 2006, 05:02 AM // 05:02

It's like comparing Coke to beer... it just doesn't work like that. I use them all, depending on the mood. Even in PvE illusion is potent- Ineptitude/Phantom Pain/Shatter Del/Epidemic and you got yourself some nice AoE capabilities. That's what I used to use in FoW back in the days. Along with conundrum and rangers dazing though

I find myself leaning towards Domi atm, e-denial is far too potent. But yea, it depends on what you are building for and what you are fighting.

SnipiousMax · Jan 30, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Degen just doesn't kill fast enough for me. I do like the Phantom Pain + Shatter delusion combo...but that's mostly Domination.

Lady Lozza · Jan 31, 2006, 05:25 AM // 05:25

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Originally Posted by Avarre

Energy Tap isn't an elite, energy drain is

The reason most people don't use it is because it drains... <10 from the enemy (you gain 2x) per 30 seconds, whereas surge / echo (for weariness signet) drains 10/20s.

My bad for the wrong skill name

Honestly energy drain is a must if you are using Ether Lord. The point of e-denial is exactly that making it better if they can't regen energy quickly, and you have to have the energy to keep casting, I've tried this with e-surge and e-tap (yes the non-elite

) and it just isn't enough to keep the regen down. The only other options for a quick regen after Ether Lord are basically all interrupts, which aren't garanteed to work. Furthermore, the recharge time of e-surge may be better but you don't get anything out of it and it costs more. IMHO if you don't care about getting the energy back go with Panic + e-tap and e-lord, it may cost more than e-surge, however the recharge is better and the effects of the skill are far better for the purpose of e-denial.

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Degen just doesn't kill fast enough for me. I do like the Phantom Pain + Shatter delusion combo...but that's mostly Domination.

The purpose of degen is degen so the casters - almost always monks - can't do what they are suppose to do (which is heal). It is not suppose to kill. Monks with low energy and low regen = no healing for team = easier to kill. The rest of the team does the actual killing

QuixotesGhost · Jan 31, 2006, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

We're talking random or teams then. Well, you'd target someone esle and leave him there to rot with -2 energy regen. When you see the veil is off( you'll be able to notice the cast times), follow up with the migraine conjure. You could also cast conjure and acrane conundrum on a different target, drain the target monk to get that energy back and strip him of veil, then proceed with the conjure/migraine. Conjures recharge should be able to beat out the CoP if you can get it on right after the migraine.

I'm a domination mesmer making a rocky transition from domination to illusion, trying out something new. It currently seems to me that if I'm able to burrow though all the monks hex defenses that illusion doesn't seem to punish monks for just throwing quick-cast enchants back up and CoPing migraine and conjure right back off. Whereas If i'm running Domination and I manage to get him stripped of enchants, Backfire and/or Diversion will punish him severly for trying to throw boon up to take down the hex.

hazmat · Jan 31, 2006, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

Honestly energy drain is a must if you are using Ether Lord. The point of e-denial is exactly that making it better if they can't regen energy quickly, and you have to have the energy to keep casting, I've tried this with e-surge and e-tap (yes the non-elite

) and it just isn't enough to keep the regen down. The only other options for a quick regen after Ether Lord are basically all interrupts, which aren't garanteed to work. Furthermore, the recharge time of e-surge may be better but you don't get anything out of it and it costs more. IMHO if you don't care about getting the energy back go with Panic + e-tap and e-lord, it may cost more than e-surge, however the recharge is better and the effects of the skill are far better for the purpose of e-denial.

Energy Drain is a good way to bring your pool up after Ether Lord. Other options from the top of my head are using signets such as signet of weariness then drain enchantment, or guilt/shame(but kinda conditional in this respect).

DieInBasra · Jan 31, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuixotesGhost

I'm a domination mesmer making a rocky transition from domination to illusion, trying out something new. It currently seems to me that if I'm able to burrow though all the monks hex defenses that illusion doesn't seem to punish monks for just throwing quick-cast enchants back up and CoPing migraine and conjure right back off. Whereas If i'm running Domination and I manage to get him stripped of enchants, Backfire and/or Diversion will punish him severly for trying to throw boon up to take down the hex.

Yeah, most of the time in arenas you'll have a hard time, mainly because of CoP. Boon Prot is such a popular choice these days. You'll find a big differance in gvg/hoh, because then you can make the space for a curse necro, who can cover your migraine heavily, and because you won't find CoP.
But if you see that thier monk is useing boon/cop, their isn't much you can do. The solution I posted will get your migraine and conjure on, enough for a healer with CoP, but for boon prot you'll have to compete with prot spirit/reversal. I usually target a different person, and since the monk usually doesn't have much hex romoval beyond CoP, their offence is screwed. My team can usually with the war of attrition.

Rayne Nightfyre · Jan 31, 2006, 10:47 PM // 22:47

In my build, i prefer to use both(15(11+4) domination and 12(11+1) illusion), since I like to play an anti-caster, anti-tank, and interupter all in one. I could never settle for just one, it's a hard decision to make. But imo, domination has a bit more pure damage spells, and illusion has a bit more status-affecting spells. I'll give you my favorite build that works just about anywhere(in PvE, haven't tried much PvP):
-11+4 Domination
-11+1 Illusion
-8+1 Fast Casting

Conjure Phantasm (Illusion)
Clumsiness (Illusion)
Ineptitude (Illusion elite)
Empathy (Domination)
Backfire (Domination)
Cry of Frustration (Domination)
Power Spike (Domination)
Arcane Conundrum (Illusion)

But yeah, do try using a combination of both, they work great together.

Ju_Smurph · Feb 01, 2006, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Illusion of weakness is a good cover enchant... Very commonly found to mask IW.

I used to use entirely domination, but there is so much more direct power in illusion. I mean most of Domination skills require the target to do something before it triggers, and this is true for some illusion skills to, but only a few.

For a good combo consider Phantom Pain & Shatter Delusions... Even still for those that require their actions. Put Clumisness on a warrior and most will swing right throught it, put Backfire on a caster and they will get it off. Put Clumsiness and Ineptitude on a warrior for a nice spike and blind... SoF for the win!

LightningHell · Feb 06, 2006, 02:51 AM // 02:51

They complement each other really well.

Power Block + Conundrum + Arcane Echo ftw!

neoteo · Feb 06, 2006, 03:18 AM // 03:18

learn all skills for all professions
its what im trying to do :P
illusion and domination are both good for pvp or pve

SnipiousMax · Feb 06, 2006, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ju_Smurph

For a good combo consider Phantom Pain & Shatter Delusions...

Yea easily one of the best combo's in the game.

Ju_Smurph · Feb 06, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

With all these complaints about the HoD Helm, i think it's hilarious...

Oh, your phantom pain has expired, thats a shame cause i was only going to blow it up anyway